In the wee hours of Thanksgiving morning an email we sent to me announcing that I had been banned from ‘posting’ on the Open Minds Forum. This was sent by ‘Jake Reason’. It was a solitary decision on his part, he said. I’ll copy the email to this space when I am able to access it via my laptop. This was apparently in retaliation for my merely pointing out that, according to the section announcement, I had been granted sole discretion over the use of the ‘Dan Smith’ section at OMF. I am guessing about this because, perhaps unknown to ‘Jake’, his banning of me included my even being able to read any messages on the forum where he has posted his ‘Reason’.
This incident does raise some important issues:
- I am fortunate for the hospitality that has been extended to me at OMF for the better part of this year.
- I am not likely to find a better public forum for discussing the BPWH
- Even if there were such a place, it would take months to establish a presence and work through the issues that have come up here at OMF.
- A particularly sensitive issue is my connection with CK. This takes some arranging, and inputs from various sources. This becomes especially problematic at a time when the R&D show is in abeyance.
I will be posting this from an Internet café. I don’t know if I will be able to make another update prior to getting back home on Tuesday.
I may be back home by late tomorrow. I have not attempted any further response to the OMF issue, pending my having regular access to the internet. This update is being ported from the Berkeley Springs Library.
There have been no follow up emails from anyone at the forum. As noted above, I am unable to read the messages on the forum.
According to Justin Martyr (100 - 165 AD):
This seed of the Logos (Logos Spermatikos) planted in every man's mind from the beginning, was the true source of philosophical truth. Between Philosophy then and Christianity there could not be any real and final opposition. All who have lived according to that light are Christians, Socrates and Heraclitus as truly as Abraham.
According to Simon and Garfunkel (1966):
Hello darkness, my old friend
I've come to talk with you again
Because a vision softly creeping
Left its seeds while I was sleeping
And the vision that was planted in my brain
Within the sound of silence
In restless dreams I walked alone
Narrow streets of cobblestone
'Neath the halo of a street lamp
I turned my collar to the cold and damp
When my eyes were stabbed by the flash of a neon light
That split the night
And touched the sound of silence
And in the naked light I saw
Ten thousand people, maybe more
People talking without speaking
People hearing without listening
People writing songs that voices never share
And no one dared
Disturb the sound of silence
"Fools", said I, "You do not know
Silence like a cancer grows
Hear my words that I might teach you
Take my arms that I might reach you"
But my words, like silent raindrops fell
In the wells of silence
And the people bowed and prayed
To the neon god they made
And the sign flashed out its warning
In the words that it was forming
And the sign said, "The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls
And tenement halls"
And whispered in the sounds of silence
#2 >>>> #1
I am coming to believe that #2 is the missing link, or more accurately the keystone/lynchpin of the BPWH, certainly from a pedagogical point of view.
In fact, it should no longer be referred to as the BPWH, but rather as the BPWT, i.e. the BPW Thesis. As such it is ready to be nailed to the door of the PtB.
The Problem of Redundancy transcends its lowly ufological origins. It rises to the level of a theological/cosmological argument that, taken together with the SAP, proves in the most economical fashion the BPWT.
To round this out, here is Carly Simon (1972):
I had some dreams they were clouds in my coffee
Clouds in my coffee, and...
Well I hear you went up to saratoga and your horse naturally won
Then you flew your lear jet up to nova scotia
To see the total eclipse of the sun
Well you're where you should be all the time
And when you're not you're with
Some underworld spy or the wife of a close friend
Wife of a close friend, and...
You're so vain, you probably think this song is about you
You're so vain, Ill bet you think this song is about you
Don't you? don't you?
If you had asked me just a week ago, I would not have thought we were going to make this...........
Now it seems that it is all over, but the shouting. Mark my words: mission accomplished, it is finished, yes, the ordeal.
What a difference a week can make. Why didn't I see this thirty years ago, or three years ago? I guess it required Jake pounding me over the head with his bible for the last three months to get me to see the light. I knew there had to an answer out there.......I had already taken note of #2, but just didn't grok that it would be the lynchpin, until yesterday and last night.
I've been wrong before, but now the opposition is going to find themselves on the defensive. They'll know it, and they'll know that I know it.
Let's look at #2 again. [a]
It is certainly not easy to see why a God that isgood would permit the Holocaust. It would be utterly impossible to justify its recurrence. It is like the X-event in that regard, only more so. The same moral logic would apply to a Federation overseeing our historical development.
At some point the Prime Directive must be broken. We would not allow a repetition. Why would God or the Federation allow such? We would intervene.
Does that same lesson have to be relearned on other worlds? Can it not be transmitted vicariously? How would the victims of the Holocaust feel if they were to learn that their ordeal was simply a repetition? Would that not render it unjustifiable by any means at all?
An omnipotent Deity could not allow such to happen, even just once. It can be justified only on the grounds that its suffering is an essential aspect of a unique eschatological context. The BPWH provides the only such context.
I have realized while being away the last two day that Jake's (@ OMF) problem of accommodating xian eschatology to modern cosmology is even more difficult that I had been imagining. He has kept me on the defensive for, lo, these several months by focusing on the messy antics. But since my renewed focus on the ET vs. UT issue, I am better understanding the difficulties of his endeavor of accommodation.
As I better understand the difficulty of his present position, I am having more trouble understanding what brought him to the present impasse. Among xians, Jake is nearly alone in attempting this accommodation. The mainline xians, who generally accept modern cosmology and evolution have generally given up on any sort of eschatology, just as they have given up on other metaphysical claims, besides that of the existence of a soul and its survival. They remain skeptical about both ETs and UTs, supposing those questions to be a matter of empirical/scientific determination, that has only turned up negative results. Jake, however, accepts both as already having been demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt.
The basic problem, as I see it, is that the complexity and confusion of eschatology are thereby greatly augmented, for no real gain on the pedagogical or evangelical front.
The upshot is that the eschatology continues to be geocentric, but now it is alleged to transpire in a small corner of a decidedly non-geocentric cosmos. The question before us is whether the residue is recognizably xian.
When I came to OMF, I did not expect to run into anything more religious than the occasional wayward xian. I knew from way back, without even asking, that the messy antics would attract the opprobrium of any respectable believer. I had assumed that my target audience, if any, would be agnostics of various descriptions. I failed to appreciate even the modest degree to which I would become a target of opportunity for a contingent of orthodox xians who, for reasons I can only partly comprehend, find themselves drawn to the field of ufology.
One explanation for the presence of the xians is that they have been sensitized to the possibility of signs and wonders relative to the Latter Days, despite the fact that there is an active dissuasion, on the part of their co-believers, from pursuing that interest in the arena of phenomenology.
But what better place to pursue such interest? The only acceptable outlet appears to be to meddle in Middle Eastern politics, as if there were not enough of that already.
Having garnered even a small amount of notoriety in one corner of a field of marginal interest to the public at large, I am, nonetheless, in no position to ignore it. But it does require no small amount of rethinking and retooling of my pedagogical effort. And I have to admit to having been slow on the uptake.
It may be that Jake, like me, was coming here to evangelize. Seeing the overwhelming bias of the ufological community toward a Nuts&Bolts interpretation of the phenomenon, it was natural for him to attempt to accommodate his xian message to that mindset. I happened to be the first to seriously challenge that strategy. Now we have what amounts to the Jake & Dan show at OMF. Both of us stand to benefit in the process, but both of us cannot be correct in our diametrically opposed interpretations. The only certain victor will be the J-man himself.
Here begins my exposition and critique of Jake's arguments. I have to admit to finding his various statements to be difficult to reconcile with a coherent picture. I say the same about the Bible, when it is taken from a putely literalist perspective. That Jake is less troubled by his own inconsistencies, is likely due the general acceptance of such in the fundamentalist milieu in which he has been immersed.
The fundamental confusion with Jake lies in his failure to reconcile Heaven with the heavens.
Thus is he forced to include both UTs and ETs in his Jakian cosmology.
His basic strateggy is to attempt to imbed an xian, geocentric eschaton within the modern, acentric cosmos. It is obviously going to be the geocentric eschaton that gets the very short end of that long stick. I just don't see this attempt to fit a square peg in a round hole as gaining any significant traction within either the scientific or the xian community, even given some kind of Disclosure.
The nub of it is that the J-man comes off only as our local hero. Yes, he is a Big Fish here on Earth, but Earth, according to Science, is but a minuscule speck, lost in the infinite depths of the Universe. I just don't think this is what Jake's fellow xians bargained for when they accepted Jesus as their Savior.
According to Jake, their Salvation does not wait for them in Heaven, but rather it lies out there amongst the stars. This version of salvation presents us with several difficulties.
Instead of a being offered a return home to God, we are being offered an interstellar Diaspora. Right away this raises questions about who is responsible for getting us to our eventual destination. This turns Jesus into a mere station master. He can give us a passport, but what good is a passport without a Visa to some specific destination? He can arrange for our embarkation, but has no control over which sovereign port will offer us refuge. How do we know that we will not end up as homeless refugees, wandering the high-seas, looking for a port in the storm and trying to avoid the pirates?
And what about Heaven and God? Why has Jake taken it upon himself to deny us direct passage to Heaven? Why have we been condemned to wander the high-seas? It sounds potentially hellish to me. It certainly does not sound like going Home. It does not sound like the promised Wedding Banquet. It will be left to the individual refugees to strike the best bargain they can with a potential 'host', whose 'responsibility' they would then become. Sound familiar?? Too familiar!
The lucky ones might be those who can arrange to die in passage. What will be their fate? However, take note, that Jake has alluded to our being refitted with special (permanent?) bodies, prior to embarkation. Does this mean that we have no escape? Now it's beginning to sound like we may have to share the fate of 'poor' Charlie:
When he got there the conductor told him: "One more nickel." Charlie couldn't get off of that train! Well, did he ever return, No he never returned, And his fate is still unlearn'd. He may ride forever 'neath the streets of Boston. He's the man who never returned.
Our hoped for Glory Train has, according to Jake, become rather more like Charlie's MTA. Should we look this Gift Horse in the mouth?
I would recommend that to you.
The Nuts&Bolts Xians (N&BXians) are saying that I am putting God in a box, by suggesting that Creation is geocentric.
The N&BXs will have to choose between Scientific Materialism and X'ianity. Even dualism cannot reconcile the two. There is no convenient place to draw the line, once Darwin comes on the scene. The IDers are focusing just on the Earth, hoping that the ET/UT issue will not impinge upon them. That is wishful thinking on their part.
For the N&BXians, Star Trek is better than Heaven. Their only concept of Heaven is spending an eternity singing God's praises. I agree, that would get tiresome in about a week. Their imaginations are delimited by fairly run-of-the-mill Science Fiction. They merely append a watered-down X'ianity to the basic Star Trek storyline. It is definitely not your old-time religion. Dr. Spock is their Jesus.
It will not be easy to dissuade them from their Blue Sky Dreams that they hold with an evident passion.
Given this view, how do we know that our next Visitor will not outrank Jesus in the cosmic hierarchy? Jesus only saved one planet, we are told. He may have brothers and sisters out there who have saved several. They may, quite naturally, have differing views on the nature of God and Salvation, depending on their respective missions.
It seems that Jake may now be agreeing that Jesus is the Creator of the universe. So I ask, why would he be sacrificed only on Earth? A rather obvious question for an Xian, one might think. But rather than provide an answer, Jake accuses me of 'beating a drum, seemingly for the neo-cons, no less! That is a bit of a stretch.
I should enumerate a list of questions for the N&BXians, at this juncture:
#1: (as above) Why is Earth special in the universal salvation economy?
#2: Why does God need angels if the ETs can perform every function, including the demonic functions?
#3: Where does God exist, if not in Heaven? Where does one go to be in His presence?
I'm asking how we know that Jesus is not an ET. If Jesus is such, then why not God? This is hardly a frivolous question. That is what many scientists are already willing to contemplate: that our universe is a lab or computer experiment in another universe.
According to Jake's interpretation of the Bible, all of us who are saved go to Heaven to enjoy the Wedding Feast with Jesus. But after the Feast, we return to some sort of interstellar patrol. In that function, we would be taking on the role of both Angels and/or of 'cleared' ETs with permanent special bodies.
y, that patrol duty could last for billions of years. I suppose there is no reason why we could not be afforded the occasional R&R back in Heaven.
There are also hints that some of us would advance to the point where we would be able to create our own worlds. But how do you and I know that we are not in one of these student created, experimental worlds. That might explain why we seem to be such a problematic creation.
When I posted the above on OMF, Jake takes exception to it, but refuses to offer his own synopsis, claiming that it is too complicated. It seems to me that this is tantamount to an admission of his own lack of understanding. He can quote scripture left and right, but fails when it comes to connecting the dots laid out therein.
In the view of the BPWH, in order to make sense of cosmology, we must develop a Meta-critique of scripture, which is one of the things I have done on this website. The fundamentalists will object that any such critique is prohibited. Sure....keep us barefoot in the winter and ignorant in the summer.
And no one else on the forum has claimed to have been able to make sense of either the Jakian or the scriptural cosmology.
We have not heard from CK for almost two months. But RMC copied this email:
Know who TamaraLinden40 is? Yes, it's our Anon source. Tamara talks just like our notorious Anon while Doty talks like Doty, Gene Lakes talks just like Gene, and McGovern talks like McGovern. Tamara Anon is a con man/woman putting out a constant stream of utter nonsense mixed with some true facts. Even Pandolfi wanted to find out who she/he was. And now you know why the editor was fired, yes the one mentioned 2nd below who seems just about to have a stroke. Finally, Doty wanted to be listed as a contributor because some of the stuff in the book is just too hot...... :-) ......Rmc
11/21/2007 8:58 PM: [CK] wrote:
Your book arrived today, and it is far better than anything I had imagined! I don’t understand why Kit and others made such a big deal about a few typos. Your writing is very good, data is presented in an orderly fashion, and your conclusions follow logically. I wish I had taken your advice and purchased the book when it first came out. Doty is a fool for not accepting your kind offer to be listed as a coauthor. After I finish the book, I will give you reviewer comments.
Thanks also for providing Steve and Ryan with an exemplar header. Please follow-up at your convenience with headers from an early “Tamara Linden” e-mail. I want to compare it with another “Tamara Linden” e-mail I have.
I am attempting to make sense of Jake's cosmogony, cosmology and eschatology.
Here is a collation of the highlights. The emphases are mine:
Link to Post -- Jake's eschatology, posted yesterday, e.g.............
[...] Why a new earth? And what is a new heaven? This is a strange Picasso-like picture.
But all this was based on my original supposition, "What if the universe was not destroyed."
OK, so let's say it was. We are still faced with a new heaven and a new earth.
Would not all God's eternal beings be saved? i.e.: those mysterious Elohim, YHWH made the heavens and the Earth, why did He have Elohim make man?
In contrast to the BPWH, I believe we are shown not only by prophetic writings, but also by the nature of creation itself, that physical universe and the spiritual can exist together, both as it has in the past and into the future.
Would this make us ET's? Certainly not, we're immortal. Would we be Angels? No, the promise is to become children of G-d, above the angels & inheritors of all that is His. Would we be UT's? Certainly that could be, for we would know all the levels of the heavens.
Relevant pervious posts............
Link to Post --
Me: Are we agreeing that Jesus is the Creator the Universe? So then why is Earth so special, among all the planets in all the galaxies, that the Creator would be sacrificed only here?
Jake:Through the Word, the universe was made. Big difference.
Jake:As above, so below. The universe displays a consistent creator. You suppose He's going to renege on it all.
Link to Post --
Me:Why do we have to get caught up in the eschatologies of other worlds? Shouldn’t one eschaton suffice?
Jake:As above, so below.
Me: Why should we have to go there to participate in their eschaton?
Jake:"In the beginning G-d created the heavens and the earth." That's what He does . . . creates!
What do you suppose Children of G-d will do?
Link to Post --
Me: So you do not accept the Big Bang theory?
Jake: I accept that the universe is and has been expanding, and that before the universe was, I Am was.
Link to Post --
It is written that there are numerous realms, sometimes called different levels of heavens = havens. Which seem to exist in different dimensions. Those in the higher heavens (realms) refrain from or in some cases are not even permitted to move to the lower heavens (realms).
However man's realm (heaven/haven) is the lowest density. And we are also a special creation, whereas the physical & spiritual laws of creation permit all those in the higher realms to interact with us in some way.
Link to Post --
Only begotten son. Only "Son of Man". The first born of many ~ mans.
YHWY (Eli) said "Let there be light . . ." (singular)
Elohim said, "Let us make man in our own image". (plural)
Genesis tells of "sons of God" coming to earth (pre-flood) and taking women as wives. There are other mentions of 'sons of god' in scripture. There is also mention of Elders in heaven, who are distinctly different than angels.
Jesus however was not Elohim per say. He is one with G-d. On the cross he spoke aloud to Eli.
The hope in Christ is eternal life and becoming the family of G-d. Family of G-d = Elohim.
Put it all together.
After we become Elohim, then what will we do? I doubt it will be singing Hymns for billions of eons.
The idea of a New Heaven and New Earth (Rev. 21) is a key feature of the BPWH. This idea, however, appears to be the most troubling part of the Bible for Jake's localized version of eschatology. Let us set this problem aside for now, and look at the others.
Another basic problem arises when he attempts to draw a firm distinction between ETs and UTs.
Jake emphasizes that we will not become ETs. We will be transformed/resurrected (some with the Rapture and others at the end of the Millennium) into (immortal) UTs. We will be even higher than the Angels, we being the 'inheritors of all that is God's', and we would 'know all the levels of the of the heavens'. This is true for those of us who have been saved by Jesus.
What then are the ETs? They are the mortal denizens of the other planets. They are what we are now, before receiving our glorified bodies. How did they get here? Apparently they came here by purely technological means. They do not have the magical powers that we will receive when we have been transformed into UTs.
Does this mean that those humans who are not saved could remain on Earth, and, eventually, by the sweat of their brows, become interstellar ETs? Or will the unsaved just be damned? This raises some possibly intractable issues for Theodicy.
Even by the
most optimistic estimates of the Sectarians, no more than 10% of humanity may expect to be saved. I am not aware that Jake disagrees. Thus the 90% of the unsaved on Earth would have been far better off to have been born anywhere other than where Jesus, or one of his ilk, was born. On such planets you could hope to become interstellar beings, and not have to worry about being damned by Jesus or one of his ilk.
Am I the only one who sees the theological problem here?
Link to Post -- Jake:
And so in closing Dan, prophecy is unclear. But the sum of prophetic teaching suggests we will be both spiritual and physical at will.
Link to Post -- Tel:
Does your supposition concerning the BPW work if the body, mind and spirit are distinct from one another? If not, you have a mighty big hill to climb.
I have this to say about that.................
The mind/body problem is the greatest challenge confronting Science, in the latter-days.
It is also the greatest challenge confronting Religion and Ufology.
It is an issue that is long overdue for a fundamental reassessment.
Link to Post -- Jake:
For the sake of clarity, I don't rule out a completely spiritual (non physical) existence in our future. However when biblical scripture is factored in, there is a strong emphasis prophesied, that we will have a body.
The description of the risen Christ, is that of a recognizable body that is touchable, can eat yet needs no food, can walk through a solid wall, appear out of no where and rise up off the ground into the air, all the while seen with the naked eye.
It is this type of body that many believe we will be changed into; as it is written His apostles taught "we shall be like him", "we shall have a new body".
[...] And so, I am persuaded that our appearance will be as a normal human being. However having metaphysical properties like the risen Christ's body was described. This body/existence is both a 4 dimensional body (space/time) and extra-dimensional ~ quantum level effect.
Link to Post
And so, IF he had been shown a dissolution of everything, with only a spiritual heaven remaining, could he not have described what he saw? Of course. But that is not the vision he describes.
We see how quickly the theologically inclined become entangled in the intractable mind/body problem.
Here is the central paradox of religious history..............
That polytheism evolved into monism, while monotheism evolved into dualism!
In attempting to understand this historical paradox, one can also obtain a purchase on the mind/body problem. That has been my experience.
The only possible conclusion to be reached is that the mind/body problem is not a scientific problem at all, rather it is an historical/conceptual problem.
On this conceptual account, both the materialists and the immaterialists agree. But which of us has the solution?
This truly is a Chicken & Egg problem....... Which came first, mind or matter?
Here the immaterialists agree with the theists and the and the pantheists........mind is the foundation of reality, i.e. it has ontological/metaphysical priority over whatever else came along afterwards.
What is hard to explain is how, only within the Western Theistic tradition, did mind/matter dualism arise.
To my mind, the emergence of Scientific Materialism out of theism is the most felicitous mistake in all of human history.
We are familiar with the saying that if reality were an elephant, we are like a blind person trying to size it up. Just to make that task more of a challenge, God, in her infinite wisdom, cut the elephant in half, giving one half to the West and the other to the East. This cut was not bilateral; it was latitudinal, and I do believe that the West got the better half, but that may be somewhat subjective. Clearly our half was the part with the greatest challenges.
We got monotheism and dualism, while the East got polytheism and monism. The BPWH envisions a limited polytheism, along with its monism, but it does come down strongly on the side of the Prophetic Tradition, nonetheless.
Is this fair? Well, let me tell you this.......all is fair in Love and Creation! And especially so when the two are of a piece!
We could not all be the Chosen people. Is that fair? Perhaps not, but it was absolutely essential to the BPW. And, hey, the essence of monism is that everything works out in the End, i.e. Apokatastasis/Redemption.
Without dualism, there never would have been science or technology. But dualism was not sufficient. Islam had dualism, but their scientific effort fizzled. What they lacked was the mitigation of the Creator/Creation dichotomy that appeared only in the Incarnation. Be advised that alchemy was the key ingredient of the scientific revolution, and the psychological basis of alchemy was to be found in the miracle of the Eucharist. Yes, alchemy, like all the ancient traditions, did pass through the Islamic revolution, but it could only take root in Christendom. And that it did. Physics followed a similar path, but alchemy was at the heart of the whole industrial revolution. The Protestant Ethic played a substantial role, but shared its basic motivation with alchemy.
And how does this development relate to Prophecy and Revelation?
Suppose that John had been granted a vision of the Beast as the Alchemist conjuring in his Laboratory. Alchemy would have gone the way of Witchcraft: up in flames.
If the identity of the Great Deceiver had been granted to John, there would never have been a scientific and industrial Revolution. Materialism would have never been allowed to rear its ugly head. Like anyone else, God tells us what we need to know, when we need to know it!
Suppose that Jesus had warned the Disciples about Judas? There never would have been Christianity! Same Deal!!
You can kick and scream, but show me where I am wrong.
And, yes, there is a silver lining to Scientific Materialism, and guess what...............We're it!
The average Xian will tell you that Materialism is great, as long as we give our Tithe to God.
The phrase 'simple minded' springs to mind, in this instance. The problem of Materialism runs far deeper than the collection plate.
Dualism is nothing more nor less than the bugaboo of the Western mind. Basically it is Deism. It is the Clockwork universe. God sets it running, and the rest is on Autopilot. It is the Cartesian dichotomy that dates back to the very beginning of the scientific revolution. Yes, alchemy was about the interaction of spirit and matter. Descartes' pineal gland concept was about the interaction of mind and matter. Each had its Holy Grail, its Philosopher's Stone.
Jesus is the 'pineal gland' of X'ianity, mediating between Creator and Creation.
The Great Pretender to the Truth was Scientific Materialism. It was the perfect setup for the BPWH. This is Armageddon, right here on OMF, between Jake and Dan. Is this enough blood for the bloodthirsty fundamentalists? Perhaps if they took Communion, they wouldn't be so bloodthirsty!
Just a thought...............
Then there is Evolution, surely the Tower of Babel for the Materialists/Transhumanists. If there is no God, we will become gods. Ah, yes, but God was a step or two ahead of the Nietzschian Transhumanists. That is God's job, to be ahead of our game plan, with a plan of her own.
We have this from Jake: Link to Post --
1) Soul creation
2) Soul merged with Body in womb - birth
3) Accepting God's grace - becoming aware of atonement "saved", "marked".
5) Re-Birth - new body (cloistered on earth. For a period of further development?)
6) Full grown adult Spirit - Married into G-d Family.
This is his interpretation of the various scriptural accounts of the life of a soul.
First we have the issue of soul creation:
Link to Post -- Jake:
From then on we were "born" of women. And of course, given a soul. Which according to scripture is created by G-d before our body is formed in the womb.
We could also say there needs first be an earth before a body can be born. There must first be a Sun before an earth could sustain life of any kind. And on and on and on - Anthropic Principle.
If there be a process of one creation added to another to another to another etc, in order to create a haven sufficient to contain all the components to create man and then sustain that life. . . Why would there not also be a process at work to create an eternal "child of G-d"?
Put my other posts together.
I propose that scripture teaches us the soul is like unto an embryo with the potential of becoming an eternal spirit.
And just as a child has the potential to grow up, transform through adolescence into adulthood and able to bare off-spring. So does a soul have a similar potential & process.
Does this provide any hints about the hypothetical souls of Jake's hypothetical ETs?
Link to Post -- Jake:
Whatever the case, we see that the essence of us is created before we are born in the flesh. This is a clear scriptural concept. And for the most part overlooked.
We 'are', before we are born. And so there is a birth that precedes human birth.
Does that essence include a free-will and/or a proclivity toward sin?
There are a number biblical prophets that are said to have been known by G-d before they were in the mothers womb. And God said, I knew you before you were born.
Many believers presume this means that because G-d knows all things, past , present and future, that he knew us before, because he knew our future.
Would God knowingly have made so many fools and/or sinners were it not part of the plan for our Salvation?
Where, again, does this leave our little grey buggers and their ET cousins? Or are they all our cousins, i.e. 'children of God'?
Here is one suggestion...........
Most of the alleged ETs possess only a collective soul. Their 'hive mentality' has oft been noted. I would say that the same is true of most animals. One indication of this would be the lack of, or strongly attenuated version of, a (nearly eidetic) personal memory that is the hallmark of humans.
We might conclude that a human-like soul is a special thing, not to be squandered on the run-of-the-mill ETs.
These same ETs have the special bodies, previously noted by Jake:
Link to Post:
The description of the risen Christ, is that of a recognizable body that is touchable, can eat [strawberry ice-cream?] yet needs no food, can walk through a solid wall, appear out of nowhere and rise up off the ground into the air, all the while seen with the naked eye.
Jake forgot to mention shape-shifting, which applies to the Resurrection and to UT's.
So why are we calling them ETs? Why not UTs?
Anyone for Occam's Razor?
Clearly, for those of us who already believe in UTs, there is no pressing need to postulate ETs in addition. It only adds to everyone's confusion, as well as providing a bigger target for our critics.
In particular, it greatly complicates the issues of Eschatology and Salvation.
And here is the kicker............
What is the point of creating exobiological sanctuaries, if they are not going to come here or we go there? Their eschatologies would be entirely separate. There would be no interaction. Their existence and histories become entirely irrelevant to each other.
What then do we make of Serpo? I don't see that we need to make much of it at all, although that may amount to blasphemy for some at OM.
And so then we need to face the Big Question............
Why all those other worlds out there? Or is that the wrong question?
For whom are those worlds made, if indeed they be world's at all?
What is the definition of a world?
Can there exist an unobservable world? Well, if God made it, God can observe it. So the answer is 'no'.
God might have a reason for creating worlds without creatures, but we have no reason to assume that He would.
Physics tells us the no phenomenon is real unless observed. We know then that God is not observing the individual atoms in our bodies. Doing so would collapse their wave-functions and disrupt our God-given biochemical processes.
Why should we suppose that a distant, unobservable planet is any more real than an unobserved quantum electron?
Jake tells us that God is an Anthropic physicist. That God must follow the dictates of Anthropic physics when it comes to Creation.
But, a couple of centuries ago, the intellectuals said that God was a Newtonian physicist. So who are we to dictate physics to God??
Doing so might make some Christians look smart, but it just makes God look stupid!
Science only deals with appearances. God deals with essences.
The essence of Creation are the creatures. In particular, we get the strong impression that Creation is a school for souls.
Suppose that God wished to create a world. That world would be anthropocentric. That fact is hardly debatable amongst theists.
But, say the astronomers, the cosmos, even though it may be Anthropically biased, is NOT geocentric.
Is that fact debatable? Not if it is a fact. But how do we know it is a fact and not 'just' an appearance?
Does not the fact of Neil Armstrong walking on the Moon prove that every other astronomical supposition must be a 'solid' fact?
I am still attempting to discover if there is a rationale behind Jake's cosmology. What I see is anunconnected collection
of his thoughts, suppositions and idiosyncratic interpretations of scripture. If anyone in the sound of our voices has a better understanding of Jake's MO, then please help us understand.
Link to Post -- Jake:
I believe there is no such thing as magic. I do not believe that any miracles that have ever been witnessed were manifested through magic. I believe however that G-d operates just like our magicians, as in it’s all an allusive trick and fully explainable. Not to us mind you, we’re not high enough on the ladder to have the faculties to comprehend, even if explained. G-d does not play dice with the universe(s) - heavens.
Jake expresses a strong contempt for anything spontaneous or random, and somehow he connects anything 'magical' with this despised spontaneity.
I asked for his opinion about free-will in this context, but he has not responded.
Link to Post --
That is the power of technology appearing as magic. However G-d’s MO is vastly superior to any concept of “technology” we currently understand.
The difference between us and interstellar travelers is that they have figured out more of how that MO works. But they too are just babes in the grand scheme, they are only ET’s. They know there are others far more developed then them. We might call those ones UT’s. And among the UT’s there is a hierarchy as well.
I ask about the limits on the powers of a UT.
Link to Post --Are you suggesting G-d is a UT? I would say, there is a gulf fixed between that heaven and the one of UT's.
But by the same token, it is not clear that there is a distinction, with Jake, between Jesus and a UT, especially since he is positing numerous Sons of God that would be involved with other planets. This would make a shambles of the Trinity.
Then this, relative to the 'technology' of life: Link to Post
Forget about the complex molecules, which would be an enormous achievement by itself, where did they get the atoms to construct the molecules in the first place? And which lab created them?
Earlier there was this --Link to Post --
You are lost in the term "technology". Tell me, what advanced technology makes a flower blossom?
Jake is very positive about what Divine 'technology' is NOT, but very vague about what it IS.
I suspect that what is gradually surfacing here is the deep disdain of the scientist and technician for the paranormal, magical, personal and spontaneous aspect of Creation.
What we see in Jakianity is the last refuge of Deism vs. Theism. This same sentiment is also endemic to ufology. Thus do we have the Nuts&Bolts ufologists in a constant struggle of having their Technological dreams being engulfed in the spiritual and the paranormal. Jack Sarfatti is an excellent example of this, and Jake does see Jack as a mentor in this regard, although Jack has no truck with fundamentalism.
The literalism of the fundamentalist is cut from the same cloth as the analytic bias of the scientist and technician.
There is a very great fear of the Numinous and the Uncanny. There is the fear of being consumed by such. This is not difficult to appreciate.
This is the problem of identity and the potential loss thereof. In psychological terms, this is the ego's fear of being overwhelmed by either the id or the super-ego. It is the narrow passage between the Scylla and the Charybdis. Only great attention to ritual and/or the Letter of the Law will bring the ego through safely. But what is magic if not highly ritualized?
We all want God to be trustworthy, but the fundies seemingly demand more than that. They want God to be Law-abiding, just as they are. They want God to play by the Rules, and they see physics as an extension of those rules. Technology is never a violation of the Rules, only an exploitation of them.
Part of this syndrome is Jake's strong contempt for contemporary X'ianity. Mind you, not because it is too materialistic, but because it is not sufficiently materialistic, in the sense of Scientific Materialism.
There is very little difference between Jakianity and Transhumanism. The only difference is the Jakian must adhere strictly to the Ten Commandments. This will allow the law-abiding Jakian to be periodically upgraded on the ladder to the (next to?) Highest Heaven. In fact, the good Jakian will be able to bypass the several intermediate ET steps on that ladder, and go directly to the higher UT steps.
This is Transhumanism without the worry of ever being obsoleted! Plus, there is a final resting place. Utopia = Heaven #2, on this scheme. It is a true Nirvana. Virtually all the benefits of being God, without any of the responsibilities. I had never imagine such a Paradise until now. It's sure got every other paradise beat to heck!
Jakianity = Transhumanism with an Xian veneer + an Omega Paradise! Wowser! I wonder if Jake is offering Franchises? He is a professional marketer/salesperson, so the rest of us had better get in line, quick.
But, so far, we have neglected a very important part of Jakianity, namely the afterlife. This is something most Xians, not of the hellfire persuasion, are quite vague about. So we usually have to prod them a bit, to even get them to speculate. The only thing they are usually sure of is that their personal destination is Heaven, to be there with many of their friends, relatives and, of course, the J-man and the Old Man, Himself.
If you are a human and not with J-man, chances are you are headed for oblivion. Hey, it's better than hellfire. But Jake does make exceptions for the pure souls who may not have had the fortune of a close encounter with the Bible, or been born-again in the usual manner.
Human souls remain in limbo until Judgment Day, at the end of the Millennium, when at least 90% of them will be obliterated. The lucky few remaining souls receive the glorified, permanent bodies promised by Jesus. So far, so good.
Jake, like me, is skeptical about our spending the rest of eternity singing praises to God. Think of the throat lozenge concession.....that would be the place to be.
So what's a glorified body to do. If Heaven gets boring, we can spend our days on assignment in the heavens. In fact, choral duty may hardly be an option, after all. There is a lot of work out there for us UTs to attend to. And there are INCENTIVES.
There is a hierarchy in Heaven, and only God sits in the Highest Heaven. Below that level are Jesus and his Brothers, all the special Sons of God, who are the planetary saviors. Not all planets need or warrant saviors, but, presumably many do. This is the highest possible rank of UT. Below that are many steps in the ladder that is heaven. If we manage to get on the fast-track of salvation, I see no reason why we might not aspire to be selected as a Savior-UT to some other planet that is presently coming on-stream to receive their allotment of souls. We could then sit at the Savior/Sons of God Council table, right next to Jesus, if we play our cards right.
The rest of us UTs will get no higher than Heaven #3, counting the rungs back down the ladder.
How am I doing so far, Jake?
Now we come to the ETs. This is where things may get a bit tricky/sticky........
The ETs are the ones born on unsaved planets. Why should there be such? Because they are here!
They are here and they are not acting like a good saved UT should act. We're talking about those little grey buggers, in particular
. Clearly they could notjust
be Demons, because we have their saucers in storage and their dead bodies on ice.
We wonder what is the meaning of their lives. What is their purpose in Creation? They sure don't add much to our lives.
Then there is the technological issue. They are allowed to develop interstellar transport, without benefit of being saved. Whereas we, humans, are not vouchsafed interstellar travel until we have been granted our glorified bodies.
Now Jake is adamant that all magic is deception, and all miracles are technological. We have to wonder, then, how does ET technology differ from that of the UTs?
Why are the ETs not able to master the 'technology' of producing glorified bodies? The answer must relate back to the Chain of Being, or ladder of bio/spiritual evolution. The ETs occupy the mid-levels between where we have gotten to now, and where we will be as UTs. The UT 'technology'
is higher up the ladder than what the ETs can ever aspire to.
Just as this is getting interesting, I'm going to have to run out for a few hours.................
The ETs, even with their limited mid-range technology, obviously have the ability to get around. Many have come here, and some were allegedly on hand to witness the X-event. If they wanted to get saved and advance to UT status, they would have had ample opportunity to do that by visiting anyone of the many 'saved' planets, i.e. planets visited by on of the Sons of God. They would also have often run into or rubbed shoulders with individual UTs who had been saved. Why would they refuse to avail themselves of so much opportunity for upward mobility on the Chain of Being?
The only sufficient reason would be that they were never granted free-will, to begin with. They were meant to permanently languish in the spiritual backwaters, like animals. It has been said, however, that even some pets manage to come back as humans. Perhaps the ETs can reincarnate as free-will humanoids, and take their chances on one of the planets scheduled to be saved. That's the best answer I can come up with on the fly.
But, if this were the case, humans would, generally, be better off if they could first be born as ETs. They could arrange associate themselves with those UTs and those planets that were most likely to afford them the opportunity to make the transition to UT status.
Otherwise............ Being an ET would basically suck, it would seem. They are fated to watch all of us glorified gorillas, who love nothing more that to beat each other over the head, go on to the Highest Heavens. No wonder that they can find nothing better to do than come here and bugger our kids and mutilate our cattle. Can we blame them?
We can just chalk up the ETs to God's superior wisdom. But that doesn't tell us how to deal with them. Should we just treat them as the demons they often seem to be
? Why should we even suppose that there are ETs visiting us rather than demons. The Bible certainly does not support this view. It seems to be motivated only by wishing to conform with the presuppositions of the generally non-xian ufology crowd. This bit of political expediency does not strike me as being a smart move, for anyone concerned with ascertaining the truth of the matter.
Jake is under the impression that he is killing two birds with this one ET stone. He is conforming both with ufology and with modern science. The problem is that modern science has no truck with ufology. The scientific community is extremely skeptical of the claims of ufology, and for very good reasons, which Jake fails to appreciate. Jake is being expedient, but expediency is never a wining strategy when it comes to matters of ultimate concern.
Then there is the issue of technology that Jake raises. I truly have not before heard the issue of technology raised in the context of God's powers of creation. Somehow this must be connected with the ETs.
It does seem that Jake has backed off from his technology gambit, certainly relative to God. But I'm not sure where that leaves the ETs and UTs relative to technology. He is probably going to hang in there with Jack S. until the bitter end.
In the meantime Tel @OM has a question or two..........
Do you mean be at one with God, be one of many hanging out with God, or be physically integrated into God's body... or something else?
Elsewhere I have suggested that we exist as brain cells in the mind of God, even at present.
So, yes, we are, even now, one with God in Heaven. But we will not fully appreciate it until the Paraclete ‘reproves’ us of that fact.
Are you suggesting then that God is clinically insane? That is what comes to my 'mind' when I think of someone who cannot fully control their own thoughts/actions.
Will He get lobotomized as the grand finale in the BPW? Is this how He is supposed to get rid of all the unproductive and rebellious gray matter?
The God I follow is not, has never been, nor will ever be, a schizophrenic.
Tel's question points to the fact that the BPWH is of one piece. Taking any part of it our of context will destroy the organic meaning, as with any organism.
Let's go back to the organism. It is the monistic cosmos. This is close to the pantheist concept: God is in everything; everything is in God. God is the circle whose center is everywhere. Physicists would call this the zeroth approximation to reality.
To increase the level of realism, we introduce the simplest form of symmetry breaking, and that will give us a first approximation to reality. All we have to do is squash the circle. By introducing that one bit of cosmic asymmetry, we derive most of the structure of the BPWH.
What was the center is now a virtual center. It is where the two axes of the ellipse intersect. Historically, that center is what we know as the X-event. The axes then represent yin and yang, if you will. In this dialectical sense, yes, God has a left and right brain, just like we humans do. He and we are schizoid in that sense. We were created in that image. It is the breakdown of the bicameral mind.
Let us take the horizontal axis of the ellipse to be the time axis. This is the venue of History. There are now five defined points in history. The X-event is the center. The Alpha and Omega are the two end points. And there are the two foci of the ellipse that also lie on the time axis. It is those two foci which are of timely concern to us now.
This model I have just described has a venerable history, originating with Joachim da Fiore (1135-1202):
And my own early version:
The canonical Xian view is that the second focal point is the Second Coming followed by the Millennium, leading up to the Omega.
The first focal point, within the prophetic tradition, might be Abraham or Moses. Greater historical symmetry comes with the latter choice, IMO.
We derive the Ouroboric configuration by partially equating the Alpha and Omega to obtain the cosmic circuit.
God, in the prophetic tradition, is revealed at the critical points along the historical axis. According to Joachim, the Millennium, or age of the spirit, is inaugurated by the third person of the Trinity.
There does seem to be a backlog of events that might be appropriate for this final focus of the cosmic ellipse.
So much for the timeline, where does this leave God?
Recall the divine purpose of Creation: it is a recreation in the sense of a singular recycling of the Cosmos. It does not have to be repeated, sub specie aeternitas. Creation is the Cosmic Bootstrap by which God realizes/reifies herself. Her points of greatest personification are just the critical points of the timeline.
The personal God of theism is not the old cobbler in the woods, it is the combination of these cameo appearances. In the Trinitarian scheme, there are three main appearances: Moses, Jesus and (?); or Father, Son and Paraclete. On the canonical view, the third person is not a person at all. Instead, we are treated to a return of the second Person.
Why should there be these three faces of Eve? Each of us is an image or face of God.
It is simply a matter of the logistics of revelation. It is where the pantheist background is necessarily supervened by a special ingress or sojourn of the Creator, recalling his sojourn in Eden. These three points are the three main historical links between the Alpha and the Omega.
The Xians, at first blush, are likely to feel cheated out of a special reappearance of Jesus, but this is not difficult to rationalize.
But what, then, will be the situation in Heaven.................?
Will Jesus be sitting on the right-hand side of God? Hold that thought. Let's consider the general case.........
Consider the life of our brain cells.
They do have a cushy existence: the highest rent district of any known biome. It is a cellular paradise. 'Eternal' life is part of the contract. Every residence is wired to the cranial Internet. It is a constant chat room, not unlike what we are doing here.
And, hey, no day jobs! No commute.
What about bodies? Strictly optional, we may suppose.
What is the biggest conceptual challenge is time, and the malleability thereof.
Eternity is neither endless time nor timelessness. There will be temporal loops, and multi-dimensional time.
What about the hierarchy of the heavens?
There are various species of neurons, but there seems to be no functional hierarchy. There is a supervening Self, but it is very hard to pin down. You can give it a name and a social security number, but that is about it. There appears to be no intermediation between the Self and its neurons. There is no God neuron or Jesus neuron, rather as there is no 'grandmother cell' to mediate our memory of same. Instead we have Karl Pribram's holographic model of the brain. The Self, like God, resides in the totality. This does not mean that Creation, in any sense, precedes the Creator, but rather that there is a symbiosis between them.
This very simple syllogism of neuron : self :: self : God, ought to be sufficient to disprove pantheism and atheism.
On these pages I have often made a 'Zodiacal' interpretation of the Godhead. Yes, one could say, very crudely, that God suffers from a multiple personality disorder. This is one way to interpret the Xian Trinity. Put any normal person into a isolation tank, and very quickly they will begin exhibiting MPD. Consider the recluse talking to himself. We are social creatures in the image of the Creator. Take away our society and we will create one in our minds, just like God did. Even the strictly monotheistic Muslims have 99 names/atributes for God!
According to the BPWH, the trinity is actually a subversive conspiracy within the zodiacal/olympiad/pantheon. MJ-12 is likely to have been modeled upon that conspiracy. The original pantheonic PtB were not in favor of Creation, because they knew it would eventually overpower them, just as today's PtB know that they will be overpowered by the Millennium or God's Kingdom.
The trinity of conspirators formed a secret conspiracy within the Pantheon. They tricked their fellow gods into a game of Pokatok. The gods became so engrossed in the game, like teenagers today engrossed in Halo, that the Trinity was able to wrest control of Olympus from them, and so they became the fallen angels, not by a sin of commission, but by being neglectful. Ever since, the fallen pantheon, becoming the planetary rulers, have attempted to use us to regain their place on Mt. Olympus. They were not about to let us return to Mt. Olympus without them in tow.
So we and they are allowed to return only in these latter days. The Three Magi are now the postmodern Serpent. They planted the seeds of the Internet, a la Corso, etc. And so the Visitors will be able to hitch a ride on our Glory Train, back to Mt. Olympus.
In this case, Jesus and his two co-conspirators in Creation will want to keep a low profile back on the Mountain. If I were them I would want to have a tourist class ticket on the Glory Train.
The moral of the Metanarrative is that you had better watch your manners when you get to Heaven, because you may not know that the beggar standing next to you is actually your Creator, just keeping a low profile wrt the PtB.
So, you see, heaven may not be all that different from down here, except that more people will be more neighborly, out of necessity.
The first shall be last and the last shall be first. And if the top dogs are really smart, they will always travel incognito.
Beyond space and time, there will be 'maintenance' duty wrt Creation. More generally, there will be the filtering of the mainly background noise of the Potentia. In that process there will be mini-creations, rather like the Minor Leagues in baseball. This will maintain the circulation of the vital force. But none of this will ever undo or surpass the eternal BPW.
That last sentence could probably use some qualification. There may be other kinds of creation in higher dimensions of reality that would serve as cosmic appendages of one sort or another. I would doubt, however, that these appendages would ever house as many souls as does Earth. The same souls have access to every creation and to every heaven, although there is no ultimate difference. So this is not much of a qualification beyond what was stated in the previous paragraph.
For instance, what could Jesus possibly do in any other heavens or creations that would surpass the X-event? No artist has ever come close to imagining such.
This right here is the climax of the biggest show in the cosmos. We had better pay attention and mind our p's and q's.
The Xians have a hard time equating SM = aX. Their disappointment is of a piece with their non-acceptance of BPWH = X2 or SoT. Will they demand their money back?
Where is the drama of it? Is not God supposed to be the cosmic dramaturge? This is more like Beckett.
I suggest there is a trade-off between the external and internal dramas. It is the internal drama that is being optimized in this manner. Everyone will have to wrestle with the Truth in their own fashion. Only then will they find their seats on the Train. Are they assigned seats? Perhaps so. Thus the extended process to ensure an orderly exodus.
If we awoke one morning to discover that entire congregations had vanished in the night, there would be absolutely no need for an aX. The ensuing panic would decimate the global population within a few weeks or months, at the most. Is that any way to run the Exodus?
The creation conspiracy trinity theory (CCTT) may have possibilities. It does help to connect a few more dots.
If it is true, then the Mt. Olympus enclave is about to receive a boat-load of refugees from the Exodus. St. Peter had better hire on some extra security. I hear that the Blackwater folks are looking for a new assignment. Tent city/FEMA trailers, here we come. The Wedding Feast will be more like K-rations. But I don't think the Olympians can hold out for long, not against the loving industry of the refugees. They will be good sports about the invasion of their neighborhood. What choice will they have?
This imminent inevitability will be a good thing to keep in mind as we attempt to fence off the southern border. What goes around, comes around.
If the Olympians and the CCTTers are smart, they will work out a deal between them so that the Olympians will look like they were pushing for Creation all along. That way we can minimize the hard feelings on both sides, and get on with the maintenance and recreation.
Those who wish to roll up their sleeves and get on with God's work, will probably find that they can work better without having to drag around their glorified bodies all the time. You don't have to wear an ID chain inside the Pearly Gates. The standard issue uniform is no uniform at all. Birthday suit? Well, something like that.
Folks might also wonder what the Earth will look like in a couple of centuries, after the Exodus.
Yes, I have the temerity to suggest that it will have shrunk considerably. It will be on its way back to Edenic dimensions, along with its caretaker crew.
Human artifacts? Cities?
I would suggest that they will be melting back into the primordial forest/jungle. Will the Loiseau brothers of controlled demolition, Towson (and WTC?) fame be kept busy? I think not. Will the modern cities not become like Mayan artifacts? More quickly, and they also have the option of falling off the edge of the observable world, as it contracts, and curls up around the edges. Ask me no questions, I'll tell you no stories.
New heaven, new Earth, new Jerusalem................?
Hey, it is possible that all of that could transpire right here. But, unless a better idea comes along, I'm inclined to see the Earth set aside as a natural enclave, with the new Jerusalem more in the clouds, if you don't mind. Then, as far as the Earth is concerned the Omega becomes the Alpha. The Gaian circuit is then partially independent of the Olympian/zodiacal cycle, which may also return to a simpler state to complete its circuit. Perhaps the zodiacal and Gaian circuits can merge into a common, edenic Alpha with a Mt. Olympus. In that case, the next couple of generations on Earth is the final Omega, or great attractor. The exodus is a return to Alpha.
A remaining conceptual hurdle is the likely end of human fertility. It is generally assumed, without protest, that biological reproduction, or any reproduction, is limited to occur down here in historical time. Elsewhere, elsewhen, there is attrition. But then death and reproduction are usually linked. The simplest resolution is that we truly do meld into a singular God consciousness, in some perfectly benign and continuous fashion. Who is likely to object? Few, indeed. Some, however, may find this rather too much like a reverse communion. I certainly remain open to suggestions.
The end of fertility raises the issue of its metaphysical origin.
I have not come up with any satisfying answers on that score. There are various biological models to be considered, as well as the probable cloning of souls. But, frankly, there is nothing quite like the real deal. Mythology seems unhelpful, as well. Athena emerging from the brow of Zeus is not an inspiring picture. Seeding Pokatok with fair maidens is one way to beguile the Pantheon. But that does seem like putting the chicken before the egg. Perhaps germination is the path to follow. It has ample metaphysical precedent, certainly. Nonetheless, putting that into a mammalian package is no mean feat. A tricky venue for metaphysical experimentation, one might think. It is far from obvious how to bootstrap certain aspects of biology. But in the end, necessity is the mother of invention. Nature found a way. Divine forethought could not hurt the cause.
Who said we had to solve every mystery today?
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